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  1. #11
    Administrator Nicklfire's Avatar
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    i have 2 kids, the first ones 9 the second one is 3.

    It's between that age between 1-4... when they either put everything in their mouth at the young age.. or even when they are 3-4 when they dont necessarly have the ability to reach at the back of the counter.... but they are smart enough to get a step stool and reach at anything they think is cool..

    They tinker with things... It's that one moment when your taking a shower that things could go terriably wrong.

    That's always in my mind with my kids.. accidents can and will happen. Everyone compares it to the stuff under the sink and that's very true.. but the stuff under the sink us parents have trained our kids not to go in there or we put locks on the doors.

    With ejuice bottles because we are always using them and differnt ones at different times.. there is always the mistake of misplacing something or forgetting to put it back or whatever the case.

    You can claim neglagence sure.. but shit happens all the time. Ejuice is more dangerous because it smells great.. and the bottles that do NOT have childrpoof caps.. need one for sure no question. I see your point rob about not having them.. but that's just asking for problems. At least if a child did get his hands on a bottle and it did have a tamper proof cap at least there is extra protection.

    the poison symbols are for people who can read not 3 year olds... the childproof caps are essential.

    But above all... putting it behind lock and key or at least high away in a cabinet at all times.

    Many stories i have read are not necessarly the parents who were neglegent.. it was a family member or baby sitter.. someone not used to the mischief of children that i see bad stories like this.. those are the ones that we need to educate more as they are not in the mindset of what children really do and how sneeky they are..etc etc
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  2. Likes MadMeathead, 18Wheels liked this post
  3. #12
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    Nicklfire,

    From a liability getting sued standpoint, not having a childproof cap is going to leave you more open than if you didn't. But that the point you are under the bus anyhow.

    But what you are missing.... The really stupid person... And they are out there... The them childproof, means childproof. Why lock away something that is childproof when its childproof anyhow.

    What is your liability if you declare something childproof and it proves not to be? Remember we are not calling these a "child deterrent" were are calling these childPROOF where proof means synonyms: resistant to, immune from, unaffected by, invulnerable to, impenetrable by, impervious to, repellent to.....

    There are tons or dangerous products out there without childproof containers. I was just thinking about examples of drugs that are not childproof. Think of any pill that comes in a box with the plastic foil backed pop out sheets. Think of any chemical...

    If it makes you feel any better we have switched to lids that some might call "childproof" (but I won't). It was more a matter of a supplier change than anything, cause again, they are anything but proof.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Don't know if I said this already but....

    Even if the bottle of e-juice is really childproof, what about your device? Most devices these days have tanks with more than 1ml of juice in them and the device is anything but childproof.

    Protect the bottle, but ignore the device?

    Its like trying to patch a screen with your fingers. It always 100% comes down to parent's responsibility.

  4. #13
    Administrator Nicklfire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evapers_Rob View Post
    Nicklfire,

    From a liability getting sued standpoint, not having a childproof cap is going to leave you more open than if you didn't. But that the point you are under the bus anyhow.

    But what you are missing.... The really stupid person... And they are out there... The them childproof, means childproof. Why lock away something that is childproof when its childproof anyhow.

    What is your liability if you declare something childproof and it proves not to be? Remember we are not calling these a "child deterrent" were are calling these childPROOF where proof means synonyms: resistant to, immune from, unaffected by, invulnerable to, impenetrable by, impervious to, repellent to.....

    There are tons or dangerous products out there without childproof containers. I was just thinking about examples of drugs that are not childproof. Think of any pill that comes in a box with the plastic foil backed pop out sheets. Think of any chemical...

    If it makes you feel any better we have switched to lids that some might call "childproof" (but I won't). It was more a matter of a supplier change than anything, cause again, they are anything but proof.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Don't know if I said this already but....

    Even if the bottle of e-juice is really childproof, what about your device? Most devices these days have tanks with more than 1ml of juice in them and the device is anything but childproof.

    Protect the bottle, but ignore the device?

    Its like trying to patch a screen with your fingers. It always 100% comes down to parent's responsibility.
    My wording could have been incorrect for your argument so what i meant was child resistent.. i think that's what many bottles on the market are now using. Is it the be all to end all.... nope.. not even close. As you mentioned our mods are out in the open..which can be a danger as well..

    Don't get me wrong i agree that we are the vapers should be totally responsiable.. but at the same time we are human and mistakes happen. We can make the argument till we are red in the face.. You.. or Me could be very diligent.. but it only takes that one time we make a mistake.... and at that point.. the argument does not matter because your 3 year old has died.. but could it have been prevented with a "resistent cap" ... it's likely.. i had a few spare bottles i bought for travel which had the resistent caps and gave it to him to see if he could figure it out.. after a minute he dropped it and walked away....

    I'm not saying that we should be any less diligent at keeping them high or locked but.. as many forms of prevention as possible maybe the key not having the read stories like this.
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  5. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by randomname View Post
    lets be honest here and lay blame where it belongs, and that's with whoever's ejuice that was. Obviously the left it somewhere low enough that a one year old managed to grab it. I don't even have kids and my juice stays behind a locked door except for the stuff i'm currently dripping and even that is on at least a 4 foot counter. or in a cupboard. How many one year olds can reach that high?
    childproof caps.....useless.
    nice smell......maybe but the stuff taste's like shit.
    taking preventative steps and storing your ejuice safety......only way to go.

    it's no different than knowing not to store the drano(or any other chemicals) under the sink when there's little ones around. unfortunately a child has payed the price for someone's lack of common sense. In my opinion that should be a manslaughter charge. Or at the very least criminal negligence
    I normally try not to be out and out contradictory however I'm going to say this...

    If you don't have kids you don't have a clue about just exactly what mischief they can get into. You hide it they can find it. You lock it up, they'll sort it out. You think you got em beat, they'll surprise you. Everything you do towards protecting your child has nothing to do with winning. It's about increasing the odds in your favour.

    My liquids are 4 feet higher than my tallest child can reach, in a room they know they are not supposed to go into and I still won't have a bottle without a child proof cap. I save the empty bottles too. I fellow passed on a bottle on a pay it forward deal that wasn't in a child proof container. I put it in a 10 cent plastic childproof capped bottle and threw the very nice glass jar and dripper.

    I say again that childproof caps should be mandatory.


    Pulled directly from my arse using Tapatalk. That's right I post from the Throne Room.

  6. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evapers_Rob View Post
    Well looking back at that incident, would a poison symbol made any difference?

    You can't tell me you were unaware that iron pill could be harmful to the child, even if you were you were not going to leave something the child could eat even if it was sugar pills on the side of the bed. More than likely iron pills do have a warning on the side or at very least a suggested dose amount. Therefor the warnings made no difference.....

    If you trust childproof caps, stick a jellybean or something a child would want in a childproof caped container and see how well that works. The child will get in.

    With all due respect Madmeathead, you simply screwed up. No other way to put it. We all make mistakes sometimes, but you need to look at the root cause here rather than trying to find bandaid solutions that even when implemented don't work.

    The only way to protect children is to take the actions required yourself, lock the stuff up, not make excuses...

    I'm with Random on this.
    Wasn't my kid, wasn't my pills and I was 16.

    However it was my lesson and I learned it well.

    You have your opinion. I have mine. and we've shared that statement before.

    I honestly and sincerely hope you can get through your life without having to learn my lesson.


    Edit. You are right. A poison symbol MAY not help a child that can't read; all though all four of mine could tell you what that symbol means and the youngest is two, cant read, but can speak very well.

    The Poison symbol however reminds me, and everyone else in the house who CAN read that the contents of whatever container it is on should not be left out where those who CAN'T read can get at it.


    Pulled directly from my arse using Tapatalk. That's right I post from the Throne Room.
    Last edited by MadMeathead; 12-11-2014 at 04:29 PM.

  7. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMeathead View Post
    I honestly and sincerely hope you can get through your life without having to learn my lesson.
    I hope so to.

    I think there is more power in your story and you sharing it than in any warning label.

  8. #17
    VIP Member KanadianKat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evapers_Rob View Post
    Well looking back at that incident, would a poison symbol made any difference?

    You can't tell me you were unaware that iron pill could be harmful to the child, even if you were you were not going to leave something the child could eat even if it was sugar pills on the side of the bed. More than likely iron pills do have a warning on the side or at very least a suggested dose amount. Therefor the warnings made no difference.....

    If you trust childproof caps, stick a jellybean or something a child would want in a childproof caped container and see how well that works. The child will get in.

    With all due respect Madmeathead, you simply screwed up. No other way to put it. We all make mistakes sometimes, but you need to look at the root cause here rather than trying to find bandaid solutions that even when implemented don't work.

    The only way to protect children is to take the actions required yourself, lock the stuff up, not make excuses...

    I'm with Random on this.
    ...hmmm... I've been away too long (miss me?? )

    Sure. Let's go with that. No more child proof caps. On anything. No more warning symbols. On anything.

    As soon as someone turns 18 (or procreates - which ever comes first) - we simply need to assume that they will know, instinctively, what products to keep away from children. They (us), all, will just know to create a cupboard for those unmarked, unsecured products. We will all place all those products in those cupboards and lock them down securely.

    ..and to protect companies selling those products, we can simply make it up to the cashier or salesperson to rattle off the warnings while bagging the products.

    And with every child's death we can all just point and say "you should have known better.... your fault".

    And maybe this will slow the population explosion in the world - and increase the need for cemetery real estate.

    Alternatively - we can be a bit cautious. Understand that child proof caps and warning labels don't prevent children from accessing the products - but perhaps us adults can read them and place the products out of reach of children. ...then when accidents happen - and they will... we, as a society can mourn the tragedy and warn others to read those labels, secure the caps when products are not in use or around children, and pay better attention.

    I like the alternative, personally. It just smacks of collective responsibility and measures that prevent multiple tragedies.

    Life is precious. Children are precious. A child proof cap costs no more than a regular one. A printed symbol takes very little effort.


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  9. Likes SteepedMonkeyBrains, amoca liked this post
  10. #18
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    I have missed you Kat

    I look forward to this one

    Quote Originally Posted by KanadianKat View Post
    Sure. Let's go with that. No more child proof caps. On anything. No more warning symbols. On anything.
    Is that in a far away place a long time ago? Well lets remove the "on anything" and call it here and today.

    I have in front of me a bottle of rum, which is neither "childproof" nor does it have any sort of warning on it. Next I have a bottle of Lysol brand cleaning concentrate. No safety cap, only a small written warning near the bottom. I haven't even bothered to discuss the garage yet.

    With these dangers around us, I'm not sure how anyone lives to see the age of 10.

    Quote Originally Posted by KanadianKat View Post
    As soon as someone turns 18 (or procreates - which ever comes first) - we simply need to assume that they will know, instinctively, what products to keep away from children.
    I'd hope so, and for those confused I'll offer a very simple rule. Assume that EVERY LAST THING is to be kept away from children until you KNOW its safe.


    Quote Originally Posted by KanadianKat View Post
    They (us), all, will just know to create a cupboard for those unmarked, unsecured products. We will all place all those products in those cupboards and lock them down securely.
    That's how its done isn't it? Is your argument here someone needs instructions on how to use and lock a cupboard? If it is, then your warning labels are going to become a book. Not sure how you are going to get them on a bottle.

    Quote Originally Posted by KanadianKat View Post
    And with every child's death we can all just point and say "you should have known better.... your fault".
    Yes.. Yes it is.. If someone is really so stupid as to not understand what they should keep away from kids, such as e-juice, it is their fault.

    Quote Originally Posted by KanadianKat View Post
    And maybe this will slow the population explosion in the world - and increase the need for cemetery real estate.
    Apparently I have a bit more faith in humanity than you do.

    Quote Originally Posted by KanadianKat View Post
    Alternatively - we can be a bit cautious. Understand that child proof caps and warning labels don't prevent children from accessing the products - but perhaps us adults can read them and place the products out of reach of children. ...then when accidents happen - and they will... we, as a society can mourn the tragedy and warn others to read those labels, secure the caps when products are not in use or around children, and pay better attention.
    Not sure I follow you here. After a tragedy happens you suggest we then read a warning label?

    I kinda prefer my method, ASSUME it is dangerous to kids unless told otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by KanadianKat View Post
    Life is precious. Children are precious. A child proof cap costs no more than a regular one. A printed symbol takes very little effort.
    I've found the childproof ones to be cheaper actually. I've also found they are more prone to leak, making them possibly a greater danger. The child doesn't even have to open the bottle to get a good dose of the product with the wonderful "childproof" caps.

  11. #19
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    in reality are we going to have to print warnings, yes we are, and my company already has them.

    My disagreement is with the incorrectly used Jolly Rogers, e-juice is not a consumer chemical product.

    For the harsh reality of life, if someone can't use or have enough common sense to not poison a child for lack of a warning label they should not have one. Of course they will never accept their mistake, as you have to accept you failed before you learn from your mistake, and blame it on anything they can - like the manufacture of the product. Sad that the entire point is missed and the problem will persist, as we as manufactures work to protect our own butts, not foolishly believing a completely obvious warning will protect anyone, beyond our own liability.

  12. #20
    VIP Member KanadianKat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evapers_Rob View Post
    in reality are we going to have to print warnings, yes we are, and my company already has them.

    My disagreement is with the incorrectly used Jolly Rogers, e-juice is not a consumer chemical product.

    For the harsh reality of life, if someone can't use or have enough common sense to not poison a child for lack of a warning label they should not have one. Of course they will never accept their mistake, as you have to accept you failed before you learn from your mistake, and blame it on anything they can - like the manufacture of the product. Sad that the entire point is missed and the problem will persist, as we as manufactures work to protect our own butts, not foolishly believing a completely obvious warning will protect anyone, beyond our own liability.
    hmmm... all that just to avoid using a poison symbol?

    Is nicotine not poison?

    Does it hurt to use the symbol?

    Does it make the product worse?

    Does it take too much real estate up on the label?

    Could it prevent even one child from becoming ill?


    They tried to bury us. Guess they didn't know we were seeds.

    www.electrovapors.com

 

 
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