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View Full Version : Are legit modders double dipping?



MrTGun
12-01-2013, 01:37 PM
So I figured it was time to ask the question. Is China being fed plans/schematics by the legit modders? Or are their spies amongst us so to speak.

The rate at which "real product" is being counterfeited is astonishing as of late.

Thoughts?

TG

vdaedalus
12-01-2013, 03:09 PM
It's not like the reverse engineering is that hard for a lot of this gear, including (especially?) boutique items. They're not cloning Macbooks; we're talking machining stainless or brass cylinders, scanning, CADing and CNCing rebuildables, laser or chemical etching...

Sdogre
12-01-2013, 03:10 PM
This will turn into the never ending thread

Mandi
12-01-2013, 03:24 PM
I highly doubt it. It only takes them getting their hands on one, then it's pretty easy to copy and get mass produced.

MrTGun
12-01-2013, 04:26 PM
This will turn into the never ending thread

How dare you mock my need for constant entertainment, pot stirring, and making clone users feel uncomfortable;). But in all seriousness.....clones are landing a day after public release. Something to me smells fishy.

TG

Sdogre
12-01-2013, 04:33 PM
How dare you mock my need for constant entertainment, pot stirring, and making clone users feel uncomfortable;). But in all seriousness.....clones are landing a day after public release. Something to me smells fishy.

TG

Not mocking lol, entertainment for sure, but I've seen a few of these kind of threads get out of control and quite nasty quickly, I will get the Nems out of the way right away, talked with Anima and he has his logo in process of trademark and the artwork is all legally used, counterfeits have no legal standing to use any of them, and he expressed he would have to deal with vendors selling counterfeits at some point, he concedes going after china would be futile effort

Nemesis
12-01-2013, 04:35 PM
It's not like the reverse engineering is that hard for a lot of this gear, including (especially?) boutique items. They're not cloning Macbooks; we're talking machining stainless or brass cylinders, scanning, CADing and CNCing rebuildables, laser or chemical etching...

You wont' see any Steam Punk cloned by China anytime soon because they're works of art where an artist is putting a LOT of work to finish what is basically an unique device, the Chi-yu and Nemesis are NOT unique so when they charge $300 for one for sure China will look at that and say... we can make it for $15 and sell a million.

Nemesis
12-01-2013, 04:37 PM
The rate at which "real product" is being counterfeited is astonishing as of late.

Thoughts?

TG

My taught about this is that the US sellers are fed up selling one a day and will buy one send it to China and get exclusivity for the nice clones which makes them money.... any thoughts ?

MrTGun
12-01-2013, 04:39 PM
Not mocking lol, entertainment for sure, but I've seen a few of these kind of threads get out of control and quite nasty quickly, I will get the Nems out of the way right away, talked with Anima and he has his logo in process of trademark and the artwork is all legally used, counterfeits have no legal standing to use any of them, and he expressed he would have to deal with vendors selling counterfeits at some point, he concedes going after china would be futile effort

We are all adults for the most part and if we keep the answers in line with the OP we should have no issues. If someone decides to turn it into clones vs, well then far be it from me to not get down in the mud;)

Honestly I'm not trolling with the original question. I'm honestly curious as to how the counterfeits are arriving 1:1 so freaking quickly. If it's cad plans etc, or if someone is getting pre release product to the clone peeps etc.

I'm sure somewhere alone the way there's a truth here some of us may not wanna see or believe. IE originals and clones/seconds rolling down the same assembly lines.

TG

MrTGun
12-01-2013, 04:47 PM
My taught about this is that the US sellers are fed up selling one a day and will buy one send it to China and get exclusivity for the nice clones which makes them money.... any thoughts ?

So u think vendors, not makers are feeding product to china? Interesting for sure.

The Stash
12-01-2013, 04:49 PM
It doesn't take very much when you have whole cities that are pretty much a factory. Once measurements are taken and logos digitized, it doesn't take "much" to produce 50,000 of anything. This alone is not cause to think the mod makers are double dipping. I personally don't think they are, the scale of manufacturing overseas is mind boggling.

MrTGun
12-01-2013, 04:57 PM
It doesn't take very much when you have whole cities that are pretty much a factory. Once measurements are taken and logos digitized, it doesn't take "much" to produce 50,000 of anything. This alone is not cause to think the mod makers are double dipping. I personally don't think they are, the scale of manufacturing overseas is mind boggling.

No argument there, my concern is the speed at which it's happening which leads me to believe someone, somewhere is lining their pocket by being a rat.

TG

Nemesis
12-01-2013, 04:57 PM
So u think vendors, not makers are feeding product to china? Interesting for sure.

I think it makes more sense , the designs themselves are extremely simple so anybody can replicate them . Who stands to make more money in this process ?
What leverage would a modder have to get China to work for them ? On the other side a large vendor can place a huge order and make the Chinese see green....

Vaper_Dave
12-01-2013, 05:43 PM
It would only take a few hours to measure and make drawings of most of these devices by hand with calipers and thread gauges.
A CMM would cut that down to minutes!

Nemesis
12-01-2013, 06:03 PM
LOL at Mr Petner aka VaporJoe.... That design would take an engineering student 3 hours to model in CAD, about 2 hrs for a good machininst.

http://vaporjoe.blogspot.ca/2013/11/black-weekend-tobeco-clones-aqua.html#.Upv3_-JvkZl

Wolffy
12-01-2013, 06:36 PM
You wont' see any Steam Punk cloned by China anytime soon because they're works of art where an artist is putting a LOT of work to finish what is basically an unique device, the Chi-yu and Nemesis are NOT unique so when they charge $300 for one for sure China will look at that and say... we can make it for $15 and sell a million.

If the market is there (sales numbers), I'd bet that a generic 'steam punk edition' PV will be out soon enough if not already made. Opportunity doesn't have to knock very hard before a knock off appears. The other possibility is quick change accessories that snap/bolt/clip on and off your 'personalized' unit. If you attend a steam punk function and see 3 of the same steam punk PV's at that function, you will know it's already happened.

DISCLAIMER: I am not a steam punk but do have a look at some steam punk goods from time to time, just out of curiosity of what others imaginations can produce.

GK_lol
12-01-2013, 06:55 PM
LOL at Mr Petner aka VaporJoe.... That design would take an engineering student 3 hours to model in CAD, about 2 hrs for a good machininst.

http://vaporjoe.blogspot.ca/2013/11/black-weekend-tobeco-clones-aqua.html#.Upv3_-JvkZl

Meh that design is fairly involved, I would want a full 8 hour work day to transfer from the physical product to solidworks. Not saying I would absolutely need the full 8 hours, but I would definitely quote it as an 8 hour job.

Also this whole discussion is pretty much irrelevant because there is nothing in it for the Chinese manufacture. Think about it as a manufacture why would I pay you for your drawing of a tube and switch or an atomizer. When I could just buy one air ship it over make it and sell it without you. At least as far as the modder being involved I don't think this is feasible.

A vendor I am assuming would have to put in a fairly large order with the legit modder to get the mods before anyone else in order to get them to China soon enough to get the clones in a timely manner and be selling them before um fasttech?

yeah I'm lost here I don't see a way this relationship works for either vendor or modder.

But here is a super tinfoil hat idea for you all....

The mods are originally designed and manufactured by some Chinese company and when his run of 50,000 is about ready. He sends the plans over to a well known modder tells them to make a thousand or 2 and asks for nothing in return. He then waits for the modders release and hype. That way when he releases his "clone" there is already a bunch of hype about the new $200-$300 product on the market.

LOL I am sorry for that one.

I don't mean to offend anyone who has had there product copied. Everything said here was just for fun.

On a complete side note I wish consumers in other industries cared at all when a product that is unable to be patented is copied. E-cigs are the first market I have been a part of that cares. I would love to have non competitive prices and still have customers that come to me because they respect the original.

Nemesis
12-01-2013, 08:18 PM
It's anything but involved. I can do it in about 2 hrs in Pro/E easily. Just revolves and chopping, nothing to complex :).

GK_lol
12-01-2013, 09:24 PM
It's anything but involved. I can do it in about 2 hrs in Pro/E easily. Just revolves and chopping, nothing to complex :).

Okay I'll do it for 20 minutes a piece for each of the 8 simple pieces and 40 minutes for the build deck. Thats 3 hours 20 minutes if you guys demand it any faster I suggest you see Nemesis for cheap outsourced work out of Kitchener. :tongue:

Michael Vapes
12-02-2013, 10:02 AM
I don't believe vendors could be feeding the cloners. Considering the vendors are from all over the world and not connected to each other, the cloner would need to convince all of them and also convince the ones who does not want to participate to keep their mouth shut. Too many moving parts to keep quiet.

Cranky Dragon Vapes
09-02-2014, 10:43 AM
How dare you mock my need for constant entertainment, pot stirring, and making clone users feel uncomfortable;). But in all seriousness.....clones are landing a day after public release. Something to me smells fishy.TG

my brain is telling me to post here to see what transpires, so i will......this should be fun after all :D As a clone user i do not feel uncomfortable, infect i will be (maybe only) one to fully endorse them and say i would buy them before a authentic :D

But to answer your original question on if legit's are double dipping i would have to answer yes. I will explain why:

It would seem that mechs'mods that are built/machined/serviced in the USA have not fallen victim to the clone. Look at the Saber where you needed to touch the end cap and then the fire bottom, or how about the zenises? As far as i am aware Switcher was the one to come up with the Caliber mod, and that (to my knowledge) has not been cloned. What of the Provari? I mean it should have been cloned and copied by now.

Anyone who whines, bitches, moans or belly aches about clones should look at the manufacture and ask "did you get it machined in China?" You can bet paco's to dollars that if they did then there was some form of agreement of lets say "well wun hung lo you make 500 "authentics" and then you can make others yourself". To further back this, and though i cannot recall which one it was, there was a group buy for a clone three weeks before the authentic was released....hmm.....i smell bad fish in china town.....

Now i am not jumping anyone's case, I am just saying i do not technically have a dog in the fight of authentic vs clone. In fact what we should be fighting is health canada, or the fact that a thirty ml of juice costs $20 plus $13+ shipping, where by in the states a 30ml runs $5 to $15 and a $4+ shipping charge.

Either way i am a cheap old bastard, and if i can get things on the cheap.....then hell yeah i will :D

bcameron
09-02-2014, 10:57 AM
Provari was cloned. The fact is it truly is not difficult to reverse engineer these mods. All you need is the real one. Obviously electronic mods are harder because they have to make their own chip, but a mech mod is not a problem.

Now if you were to say that some authentic manufacturers are lying or implying by their high price that they are not getting their mod made in China for a hell of a lot cheaper then I would say yes. A couple companies earlier this year, cant remember the name, were selling their mods for ~$250-300 and it was found out that they were getting their mod made at the same factories in china that makes the clones.

Switcher
09-02-2014, 11:00 AM
I have news for you ;) The calibre has been cloned as well as the woodie. I got a spam several months ago wrt to this jackass offering to wholesale me woodies. LOL

MrTGun
09-02-2014, 11:02 AM
Well this should work out well. You're trolling and I'm bored.


It would seem that mechs'mods that are built/machined/serviced in the USA have not fallen victim to the clone.

Ummmm....dead wrong my friend - V3Tronix Flip as an example

Juice: My challenege to you sir. Go out and do all the things required to become a top tier juice vendor (This may include a stint in Culinary School), endure the countless long hours perfecting you product, then add more hours bottling and labelling and tell me that your product isn't worth 15 to 18 bucks Canadian.

I'll use my good buddy FunkyVapes as an example here. I've been buying juice from Charlie since the only label you had was a your nic content written in sharpie on the outside of the bottle. Back in those days juice was 10 bucks for a 30. With all of the strides taken forward, all of the R&D that has resulted in new lines and flavours, and still the quality of the product has not once faltered IMO. The juice is worth what it sells for currently and possibly even then some.

"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten" - This is pretty much how I feel about "most" clones. Note I said "most". Because as in my original post I do believe that there's some double dipping going on, and even if there isn't, in some cases the difference of quality in the product doesn't justify the price difference.

But at the end of the day I do believe there is still far more junk out there in "clone land" than I think there is good. I would never buy a clone sight unseen. Even among production runs you get some terrifying variances.


Either way i am a cheap old bastard, and if i can get things on the cheap.....then hell yeah i will

This is abundantly clear ;)

Bottom line for me is that I typically buy the best in anything I do. I don't play cheap guitars, I don't rely on cheap anything when my life is on the line (climbing, skydiving etc), I don't believe a real bicycle can be bought for under a thousand dollars etc. Am I an elitist? No, depending on the item I believe in value for my money e.g. a pair of hiking boots that lasts me 10 seasons, or I believe in pride of ownership (A nice authentic mod), or sometimes both (a guitar I will own and play for a lifetime)

~TG

randomname
09-02-2014, 01:31 PM
no one cloned the original zenesis because....well it wasn't all that great. The ZNA has already been cloned. i think the original actually was too but no one bought it so you never really heard about it.
BCV mod made in U.S.A .......cloned and i know james had nothing to do with it.
loki labs drippers made in U.S.A......cloned and i know craig and higgins had nothing to do with it.
Hana mods.........cloned(made in u.s.a?)
pretty much all the decent stateside stuff has been cloned. FFS even mount baker vapor has been cloned, seriously who's dumb enough to clone the cheapest juice on the planet other than yealic.


i pay 15 bucks a bottle for juice out of the states.....mainly because it's just better than the 5 buck a bottle crap. 15 bucks for a jug of juice is actually a decent price. You can't even claim elitist at that price with 30 dollar juice out there all over the place.

you basically just dug up an ancient thread to start shit for no apparent reason other than your own entertainment. Do your research before posting next time.

Switcher
09-02-2014, 02:15 PM
<<spoken like a true gentleman>> :)

randomname
09-02-2014, 03:17 PM
<<spoken like a true gentleman>> :)

No one ever said I was a gentleman lol.

Sent from my HTC One using Xparent Cyan Tapatalk 2

Cranky Dragon Vapes
09-02-2014, 04:36 PM
Provari was cloned Now if you were to say that some authentic manufacturers are lying or implying by their high price that they are not getting their mod made in China for a hell of a lot cheaper then I would say yes.

Then i stand corrected...also some authentic manufacturers are lying or implying by their high price that they are not getting their mod made in China for a hell of a lot cheaper.


I have news for you ;) The calibre has been cloned as well as the woodie.

then i stand corrected


Well this should work out well. You're trolling and I'm bored. Ummmm....dead wrong my friend - V3Tronix Flip as an example

Random thought here and something i noticed on other sites: when one trolls it is ok, but when trolled it is not good.....ahh the true power of the internet :P and i think i said it three times before: i stand corrected. Basically the idea here is that yes i do believe a large number of manufactures do indeed double dip.

Jaytheredneck1
01-24-2015, 08:52 AM
You wont' see any Steam Punk cloned by China anytime soon because they're works of art where an artist is putting a LOT of work to finish what is basically an unique device, the Chi-yu and Nemesis are NOT unique so when they charge $300 for one for sure China will look at that and say... we can make it for $15 and sell a million.

Is this the one you're talking about?
(http://www.fasttech.com/products/0/10008987/1989805-steampunk-style-18650-mechanical-mod)

The Stash
01-24-2015, 10:52 AM
Wow, thread necro!

Over a year, that's a ridiculously long time in this industry. And for comparison sake, when they were talking about steampunks:
https://steamcloud.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/trinitysteampunk05.jpg

There really is no comparison. The fasttech one is about as far from a clone as you can get.

Switcher
01-24-2015, 11:50 AM
Talk about reviving the dead ... :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&x-yt-ts=1421914688&x-yt-cl=84503534&v=IIObN4nde8w

Jaytheredneck1
01-24-2015, 02:01 PM
Ahh didn't realise the thread was so old, that's not like me. Was bored and reading stuff, and this was pretty close to the top.

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