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  1. #1
    Advanced Mentor MrTGun's Avatar
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    Thinner wire....better vape?

    So I just jumped into an 11 page rabbit hole on ECF regarding wire temp being on of the critical factors in quality of vape and it reminded me of the first time I showed my vape gear to an electrical engineer buddy. He was perplexed that I knew, or cared to know, nothing of the wire temp in my coil in regards to how well it was vaporizing juice.

    So in my ever expanding database of useless coil building information I'm starting to believe the low ohms/thick wire may not be the be all end all as all the cloud chasers are leading the masses to believe. Throw in the whole surface area argument of micro coil and then add in wire temp and my brain pretty much shuts down and reaches for a Jameson.......and we haven't even thrown air flow into the mix yet.

    What I do know. 2.2 ohm head on a Puritank on my SVD at 12 watts produces the best vapor I've ever had. Multiple RDA and Genny builds haven't really come close. Sure the flavour is better in an RDA but I'm guessing that's a given. Sheesh even a good carto is producing great vapor for me at the cost of flavour.

    So riddle me this oh wise ones. In the interest of an instant on coil and not wanting to wait for a 12 wrap micro to come to temp, does thinner gauge wire have any merit regardless of how much of a pain in the ass it is to work with?

    All of this is in regards to a mech btw.

    ~TG
    Last edited by MrTGun; 08-30-2013 at 02:26 PM.

  2. #2
    Guru Trainer Mindfield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrTGun View Post
    So riddle me this oh wise ones. In the interest of an instant on coil and not wanting to wait for a 12 wrap micro to come to temp, does thinner gauge wire have any merit regardless of how much of a pain in the ass it is to work with?

    All of this is in regards to a mech btw.

    ~TG
    Not as far as I know. Watts are watts and volts are volts. All wire thickness and material regulate is the resistance it puts up to current passing through it. Heat is generated the same way -- by passing more current through the wire than it can handle efficiently. In this case we're not interested in what current makes it through the wire, we're interested in the waste product of the current that bunches up and gets dissipated as heat. Whether you're using thin, high resistance wire or thick low resistance wire, as long as you're passing enough current through it to generate enough waste heat to vaporize liquid, that's all that matters.

    The only significant difference between using high resistance, thin wire and low resistance, thick wire is the voltage needed to reach the desired temperature (wattage) and the amperage it needs to draw from the battery to do so. High resistance at high voltage needs less power from the battery than low resistance at low voltage for the same wattage produced.

    Case in point:

    You wrap a 0.5ohm coil with, say, 0.28AWG wire, and jam it on a mech with a freshly charged battery. Using Ohm's Law we'll work out what that puts out:

    4.2^2 / 0.5 = 35 watts, drawing 8.4 amps from the battery. That's a crapload of watts and a crapload of amps.

    So let's see what happens when we try and make a coil with thinner, higher resistance wire to, say, 2.5 ohms, and try to reach the same wattage. Obviously we need to bump up the voltage significantly, so in order to reach 35 watts, we need to use 9.3 volts with that 2.5ohm coil. Here's what we get for output:

    9.3^2 / 2.5 = 35 watts, drawing 3.76 amps.

    Same wattage, but less than half the amperage drawn from the battery to get there. This would translate into more than double the vape time and less stress on the battery.

    Granted, that kind of voltage is completely unreasonable to expect from a mech -- the most you can hope for is 8.4V from a freshly charged 2-cell stack -- but this is just to illustrate what the real difference is between high voltage at high resistance and low resistance at low voltage.

  3. #3
    Advanced Mentor MrTGun's Avatar
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    I'm no scientist, but here's the article that got me thinking

    http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/for...temp-read.html

    ~TG

  4. #4
    Guru randomname's Avatar
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    i've been through most of this stuff before research wise. From what i've pieced together the wire itself isn't as big a deal as the resistance of the coil and surface area. Originally people were vaping 3 ohm stuff of 4 volt batts, the vape wasn't all that great. So they started to drop the ohm to get a higher wattage vape. Then along came the vv device and suddenly you could recreate a 10w vape with higher ohm coils. the theory is that a 5.5 volt 3 ohm vape is supposedly better than a 4.12 volt 1.7 ohm vape. Both of these are roughly 10w vapes. they both draw roughly the same current as well once you convert the step up transformer back down. It's mostly about the surface area of the wire. more surface area produces more vapour. Part of the reason micro coils became popular. We've been through this discussion before and where most people go wrong is they forget that when you bump a 4v battery up to 6v output the output current drops but the input current to the booster is much higher, so what ohm law says is there at the atty isn't what the batteries putting out.
    Electrical 101 is "shit in = shit out" direct quote from my tradeschool theory teacher.
    I need to do a write up on this somewhere and explain it in plain english.

    as always i could be completely off, this is just a culmination of internet reading other than the electrical math.....that's what i do for a living lol.
    Last edited by randomname; 08-30-2013 at 03:54 PM.

  5. #5
    Advanced Mentor MrTGun's Avatar
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    a 5.5 volt 3 ohm vape is supposedly better than a 4.12 volt 1.7 ohm vape
    Oh Jesus.....now I gotta buy a cyborg mod (j/k....kinda)

    ~TG

  6. #6
    Guru Trainer Switcher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by randomname View Post
    i've been through most of this stuff before research wise. From what i've pieced together the wire itself isn't as big a deal as the resistance of the coil and surface area. Originally people were vaping 3 ohm stuff of 4 volt batts, the vape wasn't all that great. So they started to drop the ohm to get a higher wattage vape. Then along came the vv device and suddenly you could recreate a 10w vape with higher ohm coils. the theory is that a 5.5 volt 3 ohm vape is supposedly better than a 4.12 volt 1.7 ohm vape. Both of these are roughly 10w vapes. they both draw roughly the same current as well once you convert the step up transformer back down. It's mostly about the surface area of the wire. more surface area produces more vapour. Part of the reason micro coils became popular. We've been through this discussion before and where most people go wrong is they forget that when you bump a 4v battery up to 6v output the output current drops but the input current to the booster is much higher, so what ohm law says is there at the atty isn't what the batteries putting out.
    Electrical 101 is "shit in = shit out" direct quote from my tradeschool theory teacher.
    I need to do a write up on this somewhere and explain it in plain english.

    as always i could be completely off, this is just a culmination of internet reading other than the electrical math.....that's what i do for a living lol.
    That would be correct.

  7. #7
    Advanced Mentor MadHacker's Avatar
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    micro coils don't increase the surface area.
    whether you use 10 turns using micro coils, or double the circumference and use 5 coils, the length of the wire remains the same. therefore the surface area of the wire remains the same.

    what could possibly increase the surface area is using higher gauge wire and twisting it.
    but I'm a nube, but my first rebuildable is on its way from fasttech...

    I tried to smoke an e-cig once. Couldn't get the damn thing lit.

  8. #8
    Coach
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadHacker View Post
    micro coils don't increase the surface area.
    whether you use 10 turns using micro coils, or double the circumference and use 5 coils, the length of the wire remains the same. therefore the surface area of the wire remains the same.

    what could possibly increase the surface area is using higher gauge wire and twisting it.
    but I'm a nube, but my first rebuildable is on its way from fasttech...
    True, but what micro coils help achieve in part, is the least opportunity for a cooling effect on the juice between the coils. Any juice that doesn't physically touch the surface area of the coil is cooling itself and the juice next too it in effect causing a heatsink effect. if you can heat more juice per inch, the waste heat as Mindfield has coined it is concentrated and allows for vaporization over a shorter distance... less "other" surface area for cooling.

  9. #9
    Guru kingpin's Avatar
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    Just to add to your confusion don't forget to take into consideration how much air you have passing over your coil.
    A .5 ohm coil with a 1/16th air hole will taste and produce different amount of clouds then a .5 ohm coil with a 1/64th stock hole.
    Provari, Diablo, 20mm, Rhino, GG, GGTS, Foggati, Juggernaut, SS&Brass Templar, Hellraiser, Ikarus, 2-SS Nemesis, 2 Brass Nemesis, Magnetic Dragon, Atmos, GKFM, Mirandus, SS Pap 2.5, Paps Luxe, Cartel, TI Ba gua, Steampunk palm, My Point, Woody, Copperhead, BBM TI, BBM Lycan, BBM Brass, Anatolian Copper and Brass, Da Copper Mod, DZ Nutz DNA 6000mah, Oblivion Mod, 26650 brass, 30 amp 26700, coming...Super T-ELA, 4 Caravelas, Monarch, Microstick, Congestus, Mankos, Satburn Mini, Hellfire Hybrid ++

  10. #10
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